What happens when our loved ones die? Do they visit us from he grave?
It’s been reported that many years ago English Bible scholar, translator, author and clergyman, J. B. Phillips was visited by the recently deceased C. S. Lewis. Phillips said that Lewis suddenly stood before him, having entered his bedroom through closed doors. Lewis spoke just one short sentence to Phillips: “J. B., it’s not as hard as you think!” This “appearance” was precisely what was needed to draw Phillips out of his depression, and to set him free again to continue his life’s work.
Others feel a strong presence of loved ones for a period after they have passed away.
While the Bible warn us of the dangers of trying to contact spirits through mediums, is it possible that the reference in the book of Hebrews to a ‘great cloud of witnesses’ is about those who have passed on? There are some theologians who believe it is.
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. – Hebrews 12:1
My regular Wednesday morning guest on 98five Sonshine FM is Rev Dr Ross Clifford who is the Principal of Morling College in New South Wales. Each week we chat about a range of issues relating to spirituality and belief.
Today we discussed life beyond the grave. You can listen to what Ross had to say by clicking the play button on the audio player below.
I’d be really interested in your opinions. Do you think there’s something to the idea that we can feel the presence of those who are now in God’s presence or is it just our own grieving and emotions?
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I read your article and listened to the interview. Thanks, Rodney.
It’s real important that we don’t draw conclusions about Heb. 12:1 without first looking at Heb. 11 (that great Hall of the Faithful). That’s why 12:1 begins with the word “therefore.” The writer has just listed this whole lineage of faith – Abel, Isaac, Abraham, Moses, etc. – and then he turns to us in chapter 12 to make application and says, “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us…run…”
In the previous chapters of Hebrews, the author has been urging his readers to draw near to God in faith and find strength to keep going (strengthening their “weak knees”). So in chapter 11 he lists these great heroes of faith and calls on us to do the same.
So it’s not anything mystical or mysterious at all. It’s not speaking about having visits from those who have died. (That’s actually something condemned in Scripture – no matter of the “good” outcome and it’s something that Satan can use to lead people astray.)
No, this is really a picture of an arena–the heroes of chapter 11, and many others like them, are in the stands shouting to us (by their example) and are encouraging us to “run” by faith like them. “You can do it too! Keep running!”
Plus, it should be said that our “experience” must always be understood in the light of what the Bible teaches. It’s pretty easy to make one’s experience authoritative when experience can be misunderstood.
It might be useful to throw Jesus’ parable about the Rich Man and Lazarus into the mix (Luke 16)… One take away from that parable for us ought to be that if God’s Word is not sufficient for us, and if the testimony of His Holy Spirit is not enough – we tend to fall into the trap of trying to find hope in other ways.
Thanks Max. It’s an interesting topic and I’m keen to hear what others are thinking.
I think Jesus’ story about the rich man and Lazarus points to ‘no’ as well. The rich man wanted to warn his family, even sending Lazarus from the ‘good’ side back, but neither was allowed.
Thanks Dean. I appreciate your thoughts.
Good comments. As I said in the interview we should not seek to contact the dead via mediums etc. and we need to be cautious in this whole discussion. Hebrews 12 is interesting and as Guthrie says the context is of those who watch from the stands are encouragers and the wording is intended to convey a massive body of people which may indicate more folk are involved than those mentioned in Hebrews 11. Encourages those who may know our own journey.
Fully agree that we should not put experience over Scripture in any way. I don’t think Scripture speaks against the possibility that departed Christian loved ones may be part of that cloud. For some that helps explain the sense of presence they immediately feel after the death of a loved one.
Of course in all of this the aim is to encourage everyone, especially those who do not know Jesus, to focus on him.
Regards, Ross
Thanks Ross. As I said before, it’s a very interesting topic and good to hear a range of views. I’m interested in seeing the discussion develop.
This is why the encouragement to “run” in chapter 12 isn’t borne out of dead people watching us. It’s their faithful testimony that’s the encouragement. In fact, the very same word that’s translated “witnesses” in 12:1 is used five times in chapter 11, and each time it has the idea of a commendable life–commendation.
Quite frankly, the thought that a bunch of dead people are watching my every move is not at all an encouragement to me. But the record of their life lived faithfully for the Lord is a huge encouragement and motivation for me to “run.”
One other thought comes to mind re. the idea of feeling someone’s “presence” after they’ve died: when Christ ascended to heaven what was it that the angels said to the disciples as they gazed into the sky? He was “taken up from you into heaven.” He’s gone, in other words. Surely that’s the same with those who die. Absent from the body is to be “present with the Lord.”
What do you think? 🙂
I appreciated listening to this and also reading the discussion that has ensued as a result. The overriding message here is one of caution and Ross has made that very clear in all of his communication on this subject. A thought that has occurred to me is that this could possibly (I want to stress the word possibly) explain why Samuel was permitted to appear before Saul in 1 Samuel 28. A careful reading of this passage shows quite clearly that it was Samuel who appeared. The response of the spirit medium was one of real fear (v12) because I think she understood that something beyond her “normal” experience with spirits was going on here. As I said, it’s just a thought and I am certainly not going to go and build a doctrine on it…
Thanks for your thoughts, Rob.